toplvl | unpopular opinions

[While Loki can see that Clint is restraining something, he has no idea how big that something is, so he just waits for the other man to get his words together.]

[He's astounded to receive a compliment, and really has no idea of how to respond to it. Thank you would sound callous, under the circumstances, but there have been very few times, in the past few years, that people have appreciated anything he's done or said. Ever since breaking up with his own alternate, Loki had become quite used to being loathed. Especially since it was usually due to his own mistakes. His gaze flicks to Barton, then down, and after a moment he decides that a nod is the best way to answer.]

[The question is also unexpected and Loki thinks it over for a long few seconds, then releases a sigh before he speaks.] At best, we just met, after you've had prior experience with another me. I think... my trauma responses would shock you, possibly into feeling threatened. I think my fear and rage would have you feeling threatened as well. Especially if I became snappish. I think if it got... extremely bad, you wouldn't know how to react to someone you... obviously are still deciding how to respond to.

Of course my worst imaginings go something like "I would knock you down with a air pressure wave, set fire to the ground and make you have a flashback." Or-- enrage you by being angry or forceful. Or somehow... make you think I was like other-me. Or the stone. [This last is choked out a little more quietly than the rest, and Loki watches the ground, trying to maintain the numbness. The discussion is drawing him out, whether he wants it to or not. It was hard to talk about feelings while ignoring them.]

Were any of the other mes you knew particularly threatened by your snappishness?

[Because to him, it seems like Loki is hugely overblowing whatever might happen way out of proportion. Even the potential idea of forcing a flashback isn't exactly the worst thing that could happen. Would suck, yeah. But he can fucking give himself flashbacks if he isn't paying attention. Like with Nat--

And the idea of being enraged seems laughable. Might get tetchy. Annoyed, frustrated, even maybe touch on genuine anger. But enraged? Seems like a stretch.]

You seem to genuinely give a fuck. I'm not worried, okay?

[Loki's emotions are a bit of a tell, before he even responds. He winces at the first question, then seems to be looking to the past with consideration, then annoyed and awkward.] I'm glad you're not.

And-- other yous... about half of them would not withstand my presence at all, and any overtures I made to them were rejected, so... I suppose my snappishness was never really a topic introduced there.

Of the half that were willing to listen... they tolerated my presence. They didn't want me there. But they were willing to give me a chance to prove myself. So I didn't... really want to test my welcome.

I-I just... don't want to come across as antagonizing. The position I find myself in-- it's difficult enough. For all of us. I purposely angered them. I lied to save them. I've made enough bad impressions. I just-- don't want to push my luck. [Look, someone's learning Midgardian English phrases.] Or make anyone feel threatened in any way, so I... m-maybe I'm overthinking it. But sometimes my anger is... noisy. Or taken the wrong way.

I suppose-- with you-- maybe I can show it. Just... if I ever... seem imposing to you... I'd want you to tell me. I-I'd want to avoid that.

Think you've made it plenty clear that you're not out to antagonize me. [That's why Loki's a worried, stuttering, neurotic mess. Nothing about that is threatening, imposing, or antagonizing.]

How about this. And it might be hard for you given your...reputation, but. Don't lie to me. I'm not saying you have yet, but I mean more along the lines that whatever you feel, don't blunt it, don't pretend you don't feel it. If you're not okay, don't say you're okay. If things get heated, don't back down unless you actually want to. Don't...modify yourself for my sake.

Don't protect me from you. Just be you. Whatever that means.

[Clint's alternate, in the universe where Loki had joined the Avengers, would probably agree that Loki's behavior wasn't antagonistic any longer. But such things had really never been expressed, so the archer's words do feel slightly eerie, to Loki. Encouraging him down this path that has only ever been fraught and painful.]

[Carefully, Loki tests his ground.] I can do that. It's just I've never been asked to before. I-I suppose we could try.

And I'd... want to know, too. If our roles were reversed. [Supposedly, reading people was one of his best skills. Which in part, involved asking how he might feel, in their position. But with his traumas so heavily inundating the conversation, and all the talk about death and reputation, somehow he hadn't even considered that until now. With a sigh at his own ridiculousness, Loki closes his eyes for a moment.]

Okay. So we're gonna try being perfectly honest with each other from now on.

[Not that Clint's also outright lied, but he has held his tongue a couple times. That's just normal. But. If he's going to ask Loki not to blunt himself, maybe that means he needs to do the same. Whatever sharpened barbs he's got. Whatever odd thoughts that sit heavy on his tongue before he thinks better and swallows them back. It's only fair.

He doesn't have to be fair to Loki. But he's going to anyway.]

For better or worse.

[The idea of the honesty being for the worst, causes Loki a moment of fear that he quickly quashes. They'd see what happened. He was here because he needed to be. This was a setup that Barton had chosen as a part of Loki's debt to the Midgardians. They had to move forward.]

[So. What was going unsaid, before, for Loki? Certainly he wasn't going to mention being willing to play members of the group, to get them to join together again. But the rest of it, he supposed, could be used as a peace offering.] I-I am overwhelmed. As you'd said. I didn't... want to be numb, but there were too many traumas that we... referenced. And then...

[He takes a deep breath.] All this talk about death and Thanos and... the group splitting. It's... a lot to unpack.

This is so weird. [Maybe not the most magnanimous and polite thing to say in the face of all this. But at least it's honest?] That you got to care so much that it actually has an impact on you.

We never met again, after New York. Anything more I ever heard about you, I heard from Thor. Pretty sure my version of you only really cared about Asgard after that, rather than petty old Earth. [And even then, it sounded like cared was a strong word.] So you're kind of a lot to take in.

[Choking out a little sob at Clint's first assessment, Loki avoids eye-contact. He can still remember the alternate he'd loved asking why he'd cared for the Midgardians or the Jotun. He can remember the other him who mentioned Ragnarok but not... not dead Avengers? He remembers that last conversation with his alternate as they'd broken up, both pressed against the cold, metal door that separated them.]

[It would have been so easy to have just taken it a slight step further from a fear of sentiment and connection... into total callousness. But somehow there was something different between himself and most of his alternates. It felt weird to him too, in an awful and jarring way, because so many versions of him were just horrifying. Apparently his odds weren't good. It felt somehow like getting insulted by fate itself.] Other mes are a lot for me to take in, I can assure you.

[Pinching the bridge of his nose a bit, Loki continues,] Evidently there is a very high percentage chance versions of me become destroyers of worlds, and also annihilate large portions of several without a care.

I've made mistakes. I've hurt a lot of people. Both in those mistakes and when worse was threatened. But I'm not like them. I don't know what makes us different. I can't say I don't care about them. Or that they're not like me. But I'll fight them if I have to. Frequently I've had to.

...Noted.

[There's a furrow to his brow, thinking about the heavy implications of Loki meeting, knowing other versions of himself. Being horrified by them. Fighting them. Figures Loki wouldn't get along with himself of all people, but that's just weird.] Not sure I'd want to meet another me. Something might explode. I'm fine being my own one and only.

Hopefully you don't have to fight anyone for my sake.

That would be preferable, yes.

[So the group had gotten together again, seven years after disbanding. Only to lose half their first members. But that did mean they had at least some way of staying in contact. Moreover, Clint had described the timeline, in ways that matched up to what one of Loki's alternates had mentioned, so Thor had specifically kept in contact as well. Maybe not all was lost for them. Maybe they didn't need Loki's help.] You're staying in contact with them? Speaking enough, to the others, to describe Thor's timeline, to me. So the group is officially over, but you-- you could still face something together, right?

[He frowns lightly at the question. It bothers him, rankles even, how desperate this Loki is to have the Avengers get back together. Would Clint like the good old days back, yeah, sure, it was great for what it was. But nothing lasts.]

Yeah. Big enough threat, gotta band together on it. [He knows he wouldn't have made any difference in Wakanda. There is nothing he could have done with all his trick arrows that could have prevented what happened. He might have died, or he would have still lost his family and ended up right back in the same place. Sometimes there's a tiny hint of guilt at trying to be a moderately lawful man instead of suiting up (especially with Nat out there), but...it's only ever tiny.] We got ways of getting in touch.

[Maybe less so Thor if he's offworld, but he'll leave that to others to figure out.]

[With a sigh, Loki forces himself to drop the idea of going to Clint's timeline to 'help' the Avengers to reunite.] Good.

I-- know it must be unnerving to have me asking after that, since... you did say it was surprising to you that I cared. And I-- would apologize, but-- I'm not sorry I care more than them, [Loki blusters out on an awkward laugh.]

Just-- no one knows what to do. I don't-- mean to be unnerving. I'm protective. Of my friends and an entire realm and my debt. I know, in your timeline, they're not my friends and it isn't... my debt, as you said. But in some ways they will act the same, and I can't go back to my own timeline. Not with Thanos and Odin and the stone there. I'd be repossessed and tossed in a cell, so if any debt's... going to be repaid... it means doing so in other timelines. Without the stone or Thanos present.

That-- that doesn't mean I want to go to your timeline either, but just... I needed to make sure they were safe.

None of us are ever really safe, but yeah. Everyone still around is as safe as they're going to get when there isn't a world-ending crisis on their hands.

[He does not mention his own foray into smaller and less world-ending crisis, because look, that was accidental, trouble found him in the midst of trying to fix other shit.]

Pretty clear you have no intention of ever going home. But you know that you could. You could try to fix things there. Even from a cell. If you keep hopping timelines, start trying to fix things in places where it's not your job or your debt to fix, you know it's never going to be enough, right?

[None of us are ever really safe has a big impact on Loki. He feels like maybe Clint understands his phobia of sentiment more than others do, upon hearing it. His eyelids flutter in a way that's obviously fighting back a wince, and his eyes harden in a haggard way that Clint has probably seen on people before. People like Thor and Natasha and Bucky. All those losses that Loki had mentioned earlier. The trickster nods, regarding the rest of what Barton has to say about his teammates.]

[It's unexpected, that Clint of all people is suddenly suggesting that Loki return home to his own timeline. Loki draws back, looking alarmed and confused. The last question, in particular, hurts, and Loki makes the choice to drop the numbness.] I can't go back.

Don't you think I want to? For Thor? For my things? And my debt? And my duties toward the people I've lost? Thanos and the stone are there. Even were I fool enough to risk getting caught by Odin once more, I'll not risk being taken by that thing again.

You... you said to be honest with you. To tell you... what I was thinking. I had a nightmare once. And when I woke up, I didn't know for hours if it was true. I dreamt Thanos was displeased with my disappearance and betrayals. That he used the stone to possess me, turn invisible and... teleport to kill Thor. As a punishment to me. He spared my family. And if I go back, they're in danger from more than just him.

Edited (typo whee sorry) 2022-10-08 01:10 (UTC)

So you just left everyone else to deal with Thanos and all the god damn space rocks. [And if Loki doesn't like the way he snaps that, annoyed, then too fucking bad.] Really damned convenient that you could just leave the whole of your reality to go barge into someone else's because you're terrified of the consequences.

You think I wanted to keep living in a reality where someone with a shiny stone could just swoop in and take me over, puppet me around, use me against people I care about? At least being caught out by dear old dad lands you in a cozy dungeon instead of anything Thanos could conjure up for you.

[It's not really fair, maybe. Not the same level of comparison. Loki had to deal with Thanos and his cronies directly. Clint had only ever been just a pawn in a much bigger game. Loki knew a lot better what an annoyed and determined Thanos could do.

Never came to pass in his own universe, the way Loki feared, that he knows of. But different timelines. Could mean different reactions. Different paths.]

You planning on running forever?

[Loki eye-rolls so hard at Clint's first accusation that his head actually tilts back with the annoyance. It gets even more insulting from there, though, and Loki's mouth thins into an indignant scowl.]

[Knowing full well that phrases like keep living might have multiple meanings, Loki does pay close attention to Clint and his words, upon hearing them. Annoyance aside, Loki truly doesn't mean the archer any harm, and hopes he hadn't caused...]

[Okay, dear old dad was too much. It rankles with Loki because seriously, this was beginning to feel like torture and he didn't see a good reason for it.]

And how do you think that would go? [Loki's tone is haggard and sharp, but the undertones ring with bitterness and... sadness? Regret?]

[As he continues, it turns into a quiet little rant.] I'm supposed to go back to Asgard and say... what? "Put me in a dungeon? While I stand here allowing you do do so, under some assumption I won't just be possessed again and used to destroy everything?"

What am I supposed to do? On the off-chance they do manage to get me to a dungeon, I can still be a threat from there!

So let's say they manage to seidr-cuff me and throw me in a dungeon and keep me from telling anyone anything, mentally or physically. Which, honestly, if they found me that much of a threat would imply they felt the need to look into my mind to protect others, which would tell them about Thanos, break my deals with him, and send him after them.

What would it fix? Me in my cell? What would it risk, to even hope to get that far? And what could I do, to save them, when the inevitable happened?

Which inevitable are we talking about here? Thanos snapping half the universe out of existence, you dying, or your planet being doomed? I guess we'll never know, because in a different timeline, maybe none of those things would've even happened!

[It's unfair. It's so fucking unfair that Loki got to get away from everything he was afraid of. Clint huffs a few deep breaths through his nose before calming down some.]

Okay. [Hands up. Backing down.] You're a fixer now. You fix things. You get buddy-buddy with some version of Avengers and save the world as everyone knows it. And then what? What do you do now? What do you do next? Stay there until something else scares you off? Find another gang of Avengers to befriend and keep together like super glue?

[It is mind-boggling to Loki that Clint is asking Which inevitable? under the circumstances, as though he didn't realize that Thanos' threats against Loki's family would be the payment. But then Clint is shouting. Actually shouting at him. In what feels like betrayal. He watches as the archer tries to compose himself, clearly still snappish and... upset? Hurt? Frazzled?]

[Alright. Somehow Loki had to be the adult here. He had to be the first to stop shouting, because neither of them was apparently ready for this. Controlling his own breathing, it occurs to Loki that Clint is in fact, Natasha's partner, and that she might have taught him how to interrogate people. Though Loki's going to work from the assumption here, that Clint honestly feels the things he's showing, because there isn't enough reason to question it. Yet.] Why. Are you. So angry?

If I go back there. If I return to the place I fled and Thanos and the stone can take me, then either they will use me to kill Thor, or they'll do it on their own. They will make me regret it.

And what does it matter if I run? What does it matter who I care about? There isn't anything I can do. Not against their whole Order.

I'm not just going to get scared away from any timeline. As far as I'm aware, I can't get possessed in any timeline but my own. [He really, really hoped it worked that way. That possession by one gem didn't mean the ability of any version of that gem to possess any version of himself. That would be terrifying.]

I'm not angry. [Then what is it? What is it if not anger that Loki gets to run away from the mere potential, the possibility, the idea that he might hurt people he cares for, and tough fucking shit for everyone else? Or is it the idea of running from the people he cares about, supposedly? Leaving them to fend for themselves. Never knowing what happened to the Loki they knew.

He still doesn't think it's anger, not that far. Frustration, annoyance. And since he's the one that recognized said annoyance and backed down, he doesn't see why Loki should call him out on anger.

It's the last bit, however, that catches his attention. A slight tilt of the head not unlike a bird.]

Only the Stones from your own timeline affect you? Not ones from other universes? Are you sure about that?

[That Hawkeye denies he's angry, after shouting at him, gives Loki a moment of bitter self-pity. He gives Clint a hurt scowl, but doesn't verbalize anything, glaring at the floor.]

[The first question hits him with an eerie little chill. His eyes slide slowly back up to the archer, the tension beginning to build behind his gaze as the questions keep coming.]

[He didn't know. He didn't know and...] They said... the stones had been reclaimed, but... I honestly have no idea what happened to them.

[Loki gives the impression that it's a real nightmare to even think about this.] They wouldn't say... who had even reclaimed them.

[He's shaking at the thought, all his memories of Sanctuary coming back to the fore.] I... I-I'm not s-sure, no.

I was... going off the... as-s-sumption that... th-that they're similar to seidr, just... condensed? So... in the same way as a spell caster or a relic... can... r-restart or r-remove their spell, that the stones are the origin of the magic, once... i-it is released? But if their spell was the same as other-them's spell... I-I-I-I d-don't know how... similar... it w-would have to be.

[Ah. Ah, this is one of those topics. This is something that gives Loki the shakes, the kind of thing he'll have nightmares about for--well, for the rest of existence, probably.

He refuses to acknowledge that he feels a little bad. It's Loki. It's...fine. It's fine.]

Okay. So it's kind of an unknown, then. You're just hoping they're safely out of the picture, and nobody's planning on using them. [Clint really doesn't know shit for shit about magic, but the idea of someone reclaiming them as though they belonged somewhere or with someone in particular is...yeah, actually, that's pretty alarming.] Sorry to poke at it. I'd never heard anything like that before, but hey, multiple timelines are still kind of new to me.

[Loki nods hurriedly about it being an unknown, staring at the floor. He's trying to reconsider at the same time as repressing and paying attention to Clint. All his muscles are bunched and on edge, like a python cornered and ready to strike. Not so much striking out towards Clint so much as the universe. At fate or the stone.]

I have to know, [he vented, worry lining his tone.] I have to know and they're not going to want to tell me but... I-I have to know. It can't happen again.

Thank you. For pointing that out.

If you're actually friends with them, part of the team, [he ventures carefully] why wouldn't they tell you? Do they just want to reduce the risk of the wrong people finding out and seeking them out?

[Well, here goes a difficult topic when he's compromised as hell.] Not all of them trust me as much as other ones. They accept I want them to b-be alive and unharmed. Some of them still hate me. Some of them... I-I don't know how to describe it. They're giving me a chance and I... d-don't know if they have expectations as to what I'll do with it.

I-I-I don't think they trust me about the stones, for a number of reasons. I was brainwashed. And under duress. And traumatized by... a-all the possession I-I already mentioned. There was so much control. Too much for them to risk telling me, I'm gathering. Thanos' control over me, and... an-and my a-a-attacks on the other Midgard they heard about.

[Loki gulps and continues,] That's a part of why... Bucky and Steve trusted me, first. Before the others. The ones that are angry at other-me... I-I'm not sure I'll ever be able to prove anything to them, but trusting me with some things... even trusting me with their lives and with joining them... it... i-isn't the same thing as... trusting me with information... like that.

Honestly, if it was just a year after knowing someone like that, I-- can't say I'd trust someone with something that deeply connected to our fight with one another, either. I feel like we've come a long way. They know I'm not their enemy. Most of them see me as their ally, or at very least as a compromise. But me... calling them my friends... th-that doesn't mean they'd call me their friend if-- i-if that makes sense.

Some of them would probably laugh, were I to be struck in the face. Maybe it's guilt or... seeing myself in them, when they don't see themselves in me. But I-- care about them, when some of them would rather not care about me. But regardless... they don't-- t-tell me everything.

[It was so difficult, after flashbacks of Sanctuary, to admit that he cared about people who didn't care for him. The shame was bad enough, but with SENTIMENT screaming so badly in him with the admittance, he felt like he was inviting harm to them, just admitting that he gave a damn.]

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