toplvl | unpopular opinions

Used to be a time I could look at you and figure out what you needed. [A long time ago to him, for a few very long days.]

I don't know anymore. I just know that we need to stop talking about the shit in my world so you can get an even keel again. Don't know what that looks like, to you. The things you do to calm down and reorient yourself back into your body.

[Whether it's sex or training or listening to music loud or meditating or what the fuck ever. Something, anything, to come back to himself and feel things again.

Maybe this is foolish. He shouldn't care about where Loki's head is at. But he's not here to ruin the man, not unless Loki comes to ruin him first.]

[Loki's breath catches for a moment, and he has to force it to continue. Lovely reminders there, thank you. Loki continues to stare at the floor. It was shocking to him to hear Clint admit it, but all the more so, given that Barton's chest was facing him. Evidently... somehow he'd succeeded at gaining this Clint's trust, enough for that.]

[It was so bizarre and frustrating to him, how he'd practically begged the group for understanding for years, but they'd refused to trust him until he'd become a sobbing mess. They'd trusted villainous versions of him, even! Over him! Sweetened words, rather than quiet, careful ones. Until Loki had felt that he'd lost everyone, and meeting them caused him to shatter. And something in them... couldn't take that. For this version of Clint, as well as the Avengers in his teamed up universe, the answer seemed to have less to do with truthfulness and more to do with vulnerability. Which Loki wasn't really good at. Currently he felt like an imposition upon poor Clint, who clearly had enough troubles of his own.]

[The description made it sound as though Barton had been to a soul healer, to learn it. Or... whatever it was called on Midgard. Therapist? Loki hadn't preferred the idea of ever being so vulnerable as to speak his memories like that to another person. As such, it was Barton claiming that Loki had looked like a mess, earlier. Loki couldn't contain it anymore. There was too much. The research wasn't helping him enough. Maybe he should look into therapists. In either realm.]

That's... a good idea. But that's going to take a while.

Did you have anything else you'd... wanted to discuss?

[Loki finally managed to look Clint in the eyes again. And Barton's eyes weren't glowing. Even though his chest was there.]

[SHIELD wasn't exactly going to take back someone with open arms who had been under the thrall of the bad guy of the week, no matter what Fury and Nat said, without some assurances. It sure as hell included mandated therapy. And after struggling with the idea of it, the takeaway was...that the right doc can make a difference. He's thankfully never been too deeply entrenched in any kind of overly masculine ideal. Kept someone on speed dial, just in case.

Should probably look into picking that back up sometime. Though in some sense, ridding himself of the Ronin outfit was a form of therapy in itself.

Not gonna suggest Loki go to human Earth therapy, though. Holy shit, he's not going to saddle some poor fuck with that.

He tips his head up and looks like he's going to say something curt and witty, but doesn't. Like something's caught his tongue halfway there. Looks at Loki. Looks at Loki looking at him in turn. An odd string of tension in the air. And maybe, belatedly, he considers the openness of his pose. If someone were to fly at him right now, it's not the best position to put up a fight from initially (though he certainly would do it). Is it the thoughtless physical vulnerability that's helping to trip Loki up? He's pretty sure this Loki isn't about to snap and attack him out of the blue.

Pretty sure Loki was never keen on attacking him, after recognizing Clint's heart.

...Oh.

And where he'd felt the crawl of mild panic at the memories of Nat, now suddenly he feels a prickling shiver along his skin. Shuts his mouth slow and simply breathes, trying to become less sharply, keenly aware of his physical self now that it's brought into focus. If he asked Loki what he was thinking about when looking at him, what kind of answer would he get?

Set it aside. Set that thought aside immediately before it burns the both of them. He lets out a huff of a breath and rolls forward, and then up and onto his feet. Makes his way over to Loki. Holds out a hand to likewise help him to his feet.

At least it's not grabbing. Just an offer.]

Nothing that can't wait. Kinda would rather talk to you-you, not barely-registering-feelings-you.

[Though there's the question of whether he'd prefer to talk to Loki at all. Which he won't mention or bring up.]

[Realizing that Barton cannot possibly lift Loki's weight, the trickster braces off the floor while using the other man's forearm as a balance. He still feels surprisingly heavy, even then. His legs still felt a little watery, but maybe that was going to last a while. It reminded him a bit of how he'd felt upon learning that he hadn't accidentally killed Thor with the Destroyer, when Loki had momentarily needed Gungnir to remain standing.]

[Normally the note that he'd numbed out, despite all his promises to himself, would cause Loki to feel guilty. But he was fresh out of feels now, and it just annoys him instead, more with himself than with Clint.] I don't think you would. That's not... a good idea, in this state.

Magic... at least seidr... comes with magical somatic reactions. Like... when Thor makes it rain. Usually mine are wind. [Usually. He'll leave out the times when they've been ice bolts or fireballs, because he's trying not to scare Clint.]

I like high places. Gets windy on top of buildings. A little air's not gonna bother me. You weren't doing it earlier. [When the emotions came hard and fast and frantic and intense.

If Loki were gonna do something, it'd be...tossing a puny human through a wall for his impunity or something. But, it seems a bit of magic would be something he doesn't normally consciously control. Not the same thing.]

What's the alternative? Just tell you every little detail that's gonna upset you and overload you for later? Do I seem like that kind of dickhead to you?

[If he'd been fresh off the scepter's power, angry scared horrified traumatized, sure. He probably would've reveled in the idea of causing Loki emotional damage. Would've liked more to just kill him and be done with it. But he's not that. Right now.]

[Shrugging about the wind atop buildings, Loki opens his mouth to answer that he hadn't lost control of it earlier... except that Clint is continuing onward. Into questions that Loki doesn't really understand.]

[The idea that Clint would be happier with Loki's numbness than with an air pressure wave, wasn't the same thing as insisting that Barton overload him! Loki draws back, insulted, confused and frustrated even through the numbness. Deep breaths.]

You do not. I think I may not be the only person... who needs some time to think.

I did not intend to imply that you would want to hurt me. Merely that I thought the numbness was better than the alternative.

[Clint shrugs, stuffing hands into pockets. Still a too-vulnerable move from him, but still not going to pretend like he's afraid of Loki in this moment, so.]

Personally, it doesn't seem too healthy, but I get that kind of defense mechanism is necessary. I'd say I trust you to know what's better for you and your own limits, but...well, that'd be a lie.

...Thank you. [Thank may really not have been the word he was reaching for there, by the sounds of it. Loki waffles on whether Clint is trying to be insulting or... actually trying to perform an odd sort of intervention?]

I can't... be that upset in front of you. I can't do that to you. Or to the hope of helping.

And there are some things I'd prefer no one see. [~~Or know about.~~]

And you've had a hard enough day already.

[There's something callous and snarky that catches on his tongue, about the things he has done to Clint before, but that apparently getting really emotional and magical about it is somehow a step too far--and swallows it back down.

Let's try that again.]

We can at least call it a day and have a little time to recoup. Appreciate that you don't wanna fuck up my day more than I've already fucked it.

But... [Once again, the danger in having a chance to know, and knowing he probably shouldn't ask.] What do you think would happen if you were that upset in front of me?

[While Loki can see that Clint is restraining something, he has no idea how big that something is, so he just waits for the other man to get his words together.]

[He's astounded to receive a compliment, and really has no idea of how to respond to it. Thank you would sound callous, under the circumstances, but there have been very few times, in the past few years, that people have appreciated anything he's done or said. Ever since breaking up with his own alternate, Loki had become quite used to being loathed. Especially since it was usually due to his own mistakes. His gaze flicks to Barton, then down, and after a moment he decides that a nod is the best way to answer.]

[The question is also unexpected and Loki thinks it over for a long few seconds, then releases a sigh before he speaks.] At best, we just met, after you've had prior experience with another me. I think... my trauma responses would shock you, possibly into feeling threatened. I think my fear and rage would have you feeling threatened as well. Especially if I became snappish. I think if it got... extremely bad, you wouldn't know how to react to someone you... obviously are still deciding how to respond to.

Of course my worst imaginings go something like "I would knock you down with a air pressure wave, set fire to the ground and make you have a flashback." Or-- enrage you by being angry or forceful. Or somehow... make you think I was like other-me. Or the stone. [This last is choked out a little more quietly than the rest, and Loki watches the ground, trying to maintain the numbness. The discussion is drawing him out, whether he wants it to or not. It was hard to talk about feelings while ignoring them.]

Were any of the other mes you knew particularly threatened by your snappishness?

[Because to him, it seems like Loki is hugely overblowing whatever might happen way out of proportion. Even the potential idea of forcing a flashback isn't exactly the worst thing that could happen. Would suck, yeah. But he can fucking give himself flashbacks if he isn't paying attention. Like with Nat--

And the idea of being enraged seems laughable. Might get tetchy. Annoyed, frustrated, even maybe touch on genuine anger. But enraged? Seems like a stretch.]

You seem to genuinely give a fuck. I'm not worried, okay?

[Loki's emotions are a bit of a tell, before he even responds. He winces at the first question, then seems to be looking to the past with consideration, then annoyed and awkward.] I'm glad you're not.

And-- other yous... about half of them would not withstand my presence at all, and any overtures I made to them were rejected, so... I suppose my snappishness was never really a topic introduced there.

Of the half that were willing to listen... they tolerated my presence. They didn't want me there. But they were willing to give me a chance to prove myself. So I didn't... really want to test my welcome.

I-I just... don't want to come across as antagonizing. The position I find myself in-- it's difficult enough. For all of us. I purposely angered them. I lied to save them. I've made enough bad impressions. I just-- don't want to push my luck. [Look, someone's learning Midgardian English phrases.] Or make anyone feel threatened in any way, so I... m-maybe I'm overthinking it. But sometimes my anger is... noisy. Or taken the wrong way.

I suppose-- with you-- maybe I can show it. Just... if I ever... seem imposing to you... I'd want you to tell me. I-I'd want to avoid that.

Think you've made it plenty clear that you're not out to antagonize me. [That's why Loki's a worried, stuttering, neurotic mess. Nothing about that is threatening, imposing, or antagonizing.]

How about this. And it might be hard for you given your...reputation, but. Don't lie to me. I'm not saying you have yet, but I mean more along the lines that whatever you feel, don't blunt it, don't pretend you don't feel it. If you're not okay, don't say you're okay. If things get heated, don't back down unless you actually want to. Don't...modify yourself for my sake.

Don't protect me from you. Just be you. Whatever that means.

[Clint's alternate, in the universe where Loki had joined the Avengers, would probably agree that Loki's behavior wasn't antagonistic any longer. But such things had really never been expressed, so the archer's words do feel slightly eerie, to Loki. Encouraging him down this path that has only ever been fraught and painful.]

[Carefully, Loki tests his ground.] I can do that. It's just I've never been asked to before. I-I suppose we could try.

And I'd... want to know, too. If our roles were reversed. [Supposedly, reading people was one of his best skills. Which in part, involved asking how he might feel, in their position. But with his traumas so heavily inundating the conversation, and all the talk about death and reputation, somehow he hadn't even considered that until now. With a sigh at his own ridiculousness, Loki closes his eyes for a moment.]

Okay. So we're gonna try being perfectly honest with each other from now on.

[Not that Clint's also outright lied, but he has held his tongue a couple times. That's just normal. But. If he's going to ask Loki not to blunt himself, maybe that means he needs to do the same. Whatever sharpened barbs he's got. Whatever odd thoughts that sit heavy on his tongue before he thinks better and swallows them back. It's only fair.

He doesn't have to be fair to Loki. But he's going to anyway.]

For better or worse.

[The idea of the honesty being for the worst, causes Loki a moment of fear that he quickly quashes. They'd see what happened. He was here because he needed to be. This was a setup that Barton had chosen as a part of Loki's debt to the Midgardians. They had to move forward.]

[So. What was going unsaid, before, for Loki? Certainly he wasn't going to mention being willing to play members of the group, to get them to join together again. But the rest of it, he supposed, could be used as a peace offering.] I-I am overwhelmed. As you'd said. I didn't... want to be numb, but there were too many traumas that we... referenced. And then...

[He takes a deep breath.] All this talk about death and Thanos and... the group splitting. It's... a lot to unpack.

This is so weird. [Maybe not the most magnanimous and polite thing to say in the face of all this. But at least it's honest?] That you got to care so much that it actually has an impact on you.

We never met again, after New York. Anything more I ever heard about you, I heard from Thor. Pretty sure my version of you only really cared about Asgard after that, rather than petty old Earth. [And even then, it sounded like cared was a strong word.] So you're kind of a lot to take in.

[Choking out a little sob at Clint's first assessment, Loki avoids eye-contact. He can still remember the alternate he'd loved asking why he'd cared for the Midgardians or the Jotun. He can remember the other him who mentioned Ragnarok but not... not dead Avengers? He remembers that last conversation with his alternate as they'd broken up, both pressed against the cold, metal door that separated them.]

[It would have been so easy to have just taken it a slight step further from a fear of sentiment and connection... into total callousness. But somehow there was something different between himself and most of his alternates. It felt weird to him too, in an awful and jarring way, because so many versions of him were just horrifying. Apparently his odds weren't good. It felt somehow like getting insulted by fate itself.] Other mes are a lot for me to take in, I can assure you.

[Pinching the bridge of his nose a bit, Loki continues,] Evidently there is a very high percentage chance versions of me become destroyers of worlds, and also annihilate large portions of several without a care.

I've made mistakes. I've hurt a lot of people. Both in those mistakes and when worse was threatened. But I'm not like them. I don't know what makes us different. I can't say I don't care about them. Or that they're not like me. But I'll fight them if I have to. Frequently I've had to.

...Noted.

[There's a furrow to his brow, thinking about the heavy implications of Loki meeting, knowing other versions of himself. Being horrified by them. Fighting them. Figures Loki wouldn't get along with himself of all people, but that's just weird.] Not sure I'd want to meet another me. Something might explode. I'm fine being my own one and only.

Hopefully you don't have to fight anyone for my sake.

That would be preferable, yes.

[So the group had gotten together again, seven years after disbanding. Only to lose half their first members. But that did mean they had at least some way of staying in contact. Moreover, Clint had described the timeline, in ways that matched up to what one of Loki's alternates had mentioned, so Thor had specifically kept in contact as well. Maybe not all was lost for them. Maybe they didn't need Loki's help.] You're staying in contact with them? Speaking enough, to the others, to describe Thor's timeline, to me. So the group is officially over, but you-- you could still face something together, right?

[He frowns lightly at the question. It bothers him, rankles even, how desperate this Loki is to have the Avengers get back together. Would Clint like the good old days back, yeah, sure, it was great for what it was. But nothing lasts.]

Yeah. Big enough threat, gotta band together on it. [He knows he wouldn't have made any difference in Wakanda. There is nothing he could have done with all his trick arrows that could have prevented what happened. He might have died, or he would have still lost his family and ended up right back in the same place. Sometimes there's a tiny hint of guilt at trying to be a moderately lawful man instead of suiting up (especially with Nat out there), but...it's only ever tiny.] We got ways of getting in touch.

[Maybe less so Thor if he's offworld, but he'll leave that to others to figure out.]

[With a sigh, Loki forces himself to drop the idea of going to Clint's timeline to 'help' the Avengers to reunite.] Good.

I-- know it must be unnerving to have me asking after that, since... you did say it was surprising to you that I cared. And I-- would apologize, but-- I'm not sorry I care more than them, [Loki blusters out on an awkward laugh.]

Just-- no one knows what to do. I don't-- mean to be unnerving. I'm protective. Of my friends and an entire realm and my debt. I know, in your timeline, they're not my friends and it isn't... my debt, as you said. But in some ways they will act the same, and I can't go back to my own timeline. Not with Thanos and Odin and the stone there. I'd be repossessed and tossed in a cell, so if any debt's... going to be repaid... it means doing so in other timelines. Without the stone or Thanos present.

That-- that doesn't mean I want to go to your timeline either, but just... I needed to make sure they were safe.

None of us are ever really safe, but yeah. Everyone still around is as safe as they're going to get when there isn't a world-ending crisis on their hands.

[He does not mention his own foray into smaller and less world-ending crisis, because look, that was accidental, trouble found him in the midst of trying to fix other shit.]

Pretty clear you have no intention of ever going home. But you know that you could. You could try to fix things there. Even from a cell. If you keep hopping timelines, start trying to fix things in places where it's not your job or your debt to fix, you know it's never going to be enough, right?

[None of us are ever really safe has a big impact on Loki. He feels like maybe Clint understands his phobia of sentiment more than others do, upon hearing it. His eyelids flutter in a way that's obviously fighting back a wince, and his eyes harden in a haggard way that Clint has probably seen on people before. People like Thor and Natasha and Bucky. All those losses that Loki had mentioned earlier. The trickster nods, regarding the rest of what Barton has to say about his teammates.]

[It's unexpected, that Clint of all people is suddenly suggesting that Loki return home to his own timeline. Loki draws back, looking alarmed and confused. The last question, in particular, hurts, and Loki makes the choice to drop the numbness.] I can't go back.

Don't you think I want to? For Thor? For my things? And my debt? And my duties toward the people I've lost? Thanos and the stone are there. Even were I fool enough to risk getting caught by Odin once more, I'll not risk being taken by that thing again.

You... you said to be honest with you. To tell you... what I was thinking. I had a nightmare once. And when I woke up, I didn't know for hours if it was true. I dreamt Thanos was displeased with my disappearance and betrayals. That he used the stone to possess me, turn invisible and... teleport to kill Thor. As a punishment to me. He spared my family. And if I go back, they're in danger from more than just him.

Edited (typo whee sorry) 2022-10-08 01:10 (UTC)

So you just left everyone else to deal with Thanos and all the god damn space rocks. [And if Loki doesn't like the way he snaps that, annoyed, then too fucking bad.] Really damned convenient that you could just leave the whole of your reality to go barge into someone else's because you're terrified of the consequences.

You think I wanted to keep living in a reality where someone with a shiny stone could just swoop in and take me over, puppet me around, use me against people I care about? At least being caught out by dear old dad lands you in a cozy dungeon instead of anything Thanos could conjure up for you.

[It's not really fair, maybe. Not the same level of comparison. Loki had to deal with Thanos and his cronies directly. Clint had only ever been just a pawn in a much bigger game. Loki knew a lot better what an annoyed and determined Thanos could do.

Never came to pass in his own universe, the way Loki feared, that he knows of. But different timelines. Could mean different reactions. Different paths.]

You planning on running forever?

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