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toplvl2021-03-19 05:28 pm
insertusername) wrote in toplvl2021-03-19 05:28 pm
aita?
am i the asshole?
Life isn’t always black and white. Sometimes it’s hard to tell who’s really at fault, and no one wants to believe they’re the bad guy. Sometimes you need an outside opinion. Or several.
Tell your side of the story and crowdsource an honest answer to the age old question; Am I The Asshole?
no subject
I would like to believe that Lothal is safe now. It would mean that the loss of my crew's lives and the dismemberment of my Fleet wasn't for nothing. [His tone is just hard enough to remind Ezra that, right now, comparing who and what they've lost will serve neither one of them. The implication that he'd accept the loss if it ultimately meant more lives were saved probably isn't what Ezra's expecting.] However, the odds are too high that you've only bought a temporary victory at the cost of dooming your world. You've probably gathered by now that Palpatine is the type who likes to make examples. And if it's not him, it could easily be Tarkin - he takes the idea of anyone successfully standing against the Empire extremely personally. If you're lucky, the Rebellion has given them more pressing matters to attend to, but they both have very long and vindictive memories.
[At any rate, there's nothing lost by telling him. Ezra's already voiced his intent to return home as soon as possible, and Thrawn doesn't expect to change his mind.]
I don't plan on returning immediately to the Empire - I have no desire to allow Palpatine to make an example out of me, least of all when I may well be able to carry out my mission in spite of this reversal. I've come back from worse than this before. However, I am willing to arrange transport to Lothal for you, as soon as I'm able to resume contact with the Chiss Ascendancy.
[What's left of his Fleet needs repairs, and he needs a trained Navigator, if he's actually going to take on this mission. Besides, he needs to get a message back to Lord Vader outside of all official Imperial channels, and he doesn't trust Ezra to be the one to carry it even in the highly unlikely event that he proves willing.]
no subject
[It hits him suddenly how little he knows about Thrawn other than his work for the Empire. He'd never heard of the Chiss until meeting him, and he knows even less about this Ascendancy they have. He's curious, as he always is, but it doesn't feel like now's the time to talk about it. Even if it might be more useful than talking in circles.]
And you're not wrong about Lothal. Not technically. It's possible the Empire will try to reclaim it. It's likely they'd want to make an example out of it too. But I saw Lothal. Its future. I wouldn't have chosen this path otherwise. [For all his snippiness, he doesn't truly believe he's the one who saved Lothal. He's the one who got Thrawn out of there, sure, but even that took a lot of help.] Lothal won't bow to the Empire ever again. Its people will fight back, they were fighting back the moment we jumped to hyperspace.
You said you've studied the Jedi, or as much as you could find. Then you should know we don't see the future, only possibilities. Whatever you think of me, you should also know that I didn't do any of this on a whim. I'd been planning it for a while, though no else knew. That way they couldn't give up the plan if they were captured, and more importantly... that way they couldn't stop me. This was the only path I had left to guarantee peace on Lothal.
As for the rest of the galaxy, I know about as much as you. Only difference is I have hope, hope that things will get better. I'm willing to bet that when we return, there won't be an Empire to worry about.
no subject
[It answers two of Thrawn's more pressing questions: Ezra has more than usable Third Sight, and Palpatine won't be bringing the Death Star to Lothal. If there were even the slightest possibility of that, he figures it'd loom large in Ezra's visions; after all, its presence in the Force must far outweigh even what Thrawn had sensed from it.
The one time Palpatine had taken him to see the battlestation under construction, he'd done it when part of the shielding over the kyber array was in the process of being replaced - a deliberate choice, as the kyber crystals generated a peculiar electromagnetic resonance that made the Death Star feel already haunted by the ghosts of the billions upon billions whose lives it was destined to take. One didn't build something like the Death Star and then not use it - and then not find excuse after excuse to keep using it. But maybe that had been the plan all along; one of the few pieces of information Thrawn had been able to turn up about the unique ways in which the Sith used the Force was that, in the past, at least one of them had learned how to weaponize a Force wound - the disrupted energies created by destruction on a planetary scale.
For the time being, Palpatine had merely been trying to overawe him with it. It hadn't worked. He'd kept his emotions carefully tucked away, let himself feel nothing except distaste that this colossal, hubristic waste of resources and credits was so close to completion. Palpatine had been visibly disappointed not to get more of a reaction out of him - and by the time the reaction finally came, Thrawn had been back with his Fleet, too far away for Palpatine to sense it.
That had been the first time in his life Thrawn could recall ever feeling genuine hatred for anyone or anything. He'd given it plenty of time to pass, and then he'd contacted Lord Vader again, to see if the tenuous bond of trust they'd forged was strong enough to support something more than a political alliance. Perhaps to both their surprise, it had been, and instead of allies, they'd become co-conspirators - something that held more in common with an intense, doomed, and more than slightly toxic romance than with friendship.
Just as they'd decided then, Lord Vader will have to be the one to handle the Death Star now. One way or another, he's going to feed it to the Rebellion - not that Thrawn expects him to have any trouble getting them to swallow a piece of bait that big and tempting. And if they happen to choke on it, Thrawn won't consider it a tragedy.]
...However, you should realize by now that having a plan is better than having hope, and that you can't truly expect anything to improve unless you take an active hand in it.
[His tone makes it clear that despite the words, that's not actually a criticism. It's an olive branch, or something close enough. And it's an invitation - to work together, and see where it takes them. Thrawn is nothing if not pragmatic: being angry about his situation won't improve it, nor would taking that anger out on Ezra - but making an asset out of him will do more than anything else to prevent it from getting worse.]
When you say the Empire won't be there when we return - is that just a feeling, or are you able to provide details?
[He isn't expecting them, and he has his own private odds on the most and least likely scenarios for the Empire's fall, but it certainly doesn't hurt anything to ask.]
no subject
[You can't actively change anything unless you actively believe in it first, he figures. It wasn't until he joined the Ghost crew that he started having hope again, and it was that hope that moved him to change. His parents had tried to do the same thing for Lothal, and he hopes now that he did an okay job at continuing their work.
Likewise, his words aren't a criticism either. Just a reminder.]
Oh yeah. I actually saw a future where a Jedi with a green lightsaber killed Palpatine and restored balance to the Force. It was pretty wizard.
[Since he's the last Jedi left fighting, it should be obvious that it's him and not any other 19 year old born around the creation of the Empire who lives in the Outer Rim and has a green lightsaber.]
But seriously, if you're hoping I'll reveal some huge secret of the Rebellion, there isn't any. The future I've seen is vague, and doesn't extend much beyond Lothal. Besides, my faith's not really in the Alliance to Restore the Republic and so on. I think they'll do fine, but if we have any secret weapon, it's the ordinary people going about their everyday lives under the Empire.
The Empire rules by fear. And that's all that's keeping it in power now. When people realize they don't have to be afraid, that they're not alone, that we're stronger together... that's what the real Rebellion is. My goal was to free Lothal. And we did it, without the Rebel Alliance, without any real army. With friends, with family, with ordinary people who believed in a better future for their home. If we managed that, what's stopping every other planet from rising up? That's... what I hope at least.
no subject
I was not asking you about the Rebellion. I was asking whether you had any sense of the scope and disposition of forces in the civil war that would ensue if the Empire were truly destabilized. As I said, Palpatine doesn't believe his Empire deserves to outlive him. More importantly, he thinks the galaxy deserves to be helpless without him in control. Even if that were not the case, however, a revolution that threatened the Empire would be met with a violent and multi-pronged counterrevolution - because, while fear may be Palpatine's weapon, it is not the Empire's. Its weapon is and always has been money.
The unique characteristic of fascism is not its militarization - it's the fact that it is, above all else, conceived as an economic final solution. It creates an almost fully privatized planned economy which artificially suppresses competition and welds corporate power to the state in a way that resembles feudalism rather than a free market: it divides the galaxy into fiefdoms based on productive sectors rather than territory, ruled by capitalist lords who are effectively omnipotent within the bounds of their own enterprises. It was only beginning to put down roots on Lothal. It is much more entrenched in the rest of the galaxy. Those who benefit most from it are compelled to fight for it, not only for the sake of power and profits but for the sake of their own survival - and some of them possess weapons every bit as dangerous as the ones the Imperial Navy holds. If the Rebellion meets with any success in taking power, they'll either be forced to make concessions to those corporate interests - concessions that put them right back on track to sink into the same cesspool of corruption as the Republic - or they'll be squaring off against enemies with the power to starve out or cripple production on entire worlds if they deem it necessary to their self-preservation.
Again, that is without accounting for Palpatine's plans to destroy the Empire if it ever fails to serve him. The divisions existing among his subordinates mean that without his control, the Empire could break apart into warring factions, fighting each other as well as the Rebellion, which would necessitate a war of reunification that could drag on for years and waste an incredible amount of lives, credits, and resources if not properly managed. The result Palpatine intends for all of the above would be a state, or group of states, that are militarily decimated, politically unable to administer the territory the Empire currently holds, and likely in a deep economic recession as well. There's enough unpredictability, enough margin for error, and enough people working against him that it may not turn out that badly, but it is important for you to understand exactly what is at risk.
no subject
[For once, Ezra's speechless. His face goes blank, not really sure what to say to all... that. Look, he was a Lieutenant Commander in the Rebellion and did a few weeks at an Imperial academy, but this sorta stuff is way over his head. He's never even given the economy much thought other than he knows Lothal had issues during the Clone Wars, the Empire claimed they were there to help, and then his planet was drained of resources. The galactic economy? Now that just makes his head spin.]
I guess my answer is... no? Or. I don't know. I think things would work out. Somehow. Remember, the hope thing! Yeah...
[What was it Kanan and Ahsoka told him? That the Jedi weren't supposed to be involved with the rest of the galaxy and all its wars? That always seemed like bantha fodder to him, but this is one case where he thinks maybe it's better off if the Jedi aren't involved. He'll stick with the Force stuff. Right! Force stuff! Thrawn can't look all smart if he brings the discussion back to that!]
None of this even matters if Palpatine's able to control the Force the way he was planning to. Did he... did he tell you what he showed me on the Chimaera? He gave me a chance to bring my parents back to life. To save them. To live in a world where I never lost them.
[The same chance he had with Kanan. He knew it didn't mean resurrecting someone from the dead, only choosing a different path. But that power alone was terrifying.]
I don't think he's able to do anything like that on his own. Not yet. But he's getting closer. All he needs is someone else to open the door. I can't worry about what'll happen after the Empire's defeated. As long as he's alive, in some form or another, the galaxy will never be safe.
Once I defeat the Sith, you can spend every cycle telling me about economics and militarism and all the things I should've considered. Sound good?
no subject
We're on the same page when it comes to what needs to happen to Palpatine. What I am saying is that there is a reason why his apprentice and I have not attempted to remove him yet, even after we realized that the necessity of it was inescapable: even in death, he might manage to take the rest of the galaxy down with him, and that is what I have been working to try to prevent. This goes back to the threats external to the Empire that I mentioned. The Empire doesn't have the luxury of simply fighting out its internal contradictions when there's one powerful and influential enemy already making incursions on its borders, and it's only one of many. A new Republic and one or more Imperial remnants locked in civil war will be at an extreme, even lethal, disadvantage in facing those threats.
When it comes to the Force, it's true that my view of it is much more restricted than yours, and that may mean that not all of my priorities are totally correct when it comes to handling Palpatine. However, my top priority will always be protecting the common people of the galaxy. I joined the Empire because it was - and still is - the political entity best poised to save them from annihilation, or worse. For the moment, it must be preserved - if nothing else, then as an emergency makeshift whose entire purpose is to weather the coming storm, to handle threats that a new Republic built along the lines of the old would be structurally incapable of facing.
[Still, he doesn't expect Ezra to get it just yet. Actually, it would be nice if he never has to understand the ugliness of necessity the way Thrawn does - if he could remain at least partially untainted by the cynicism and grim moral calculus the rest of the galaxy runs on. Thrawn's seen the toll such things have taken on other - former - Jedi, as well as on the leaders of both the Empire and the Rebellion, although in the latter case he's only been able to observe it indirectly. Protecting Ezra from that wouldn't be much, but it wouldn't be nothing, either, and sometimes the small victories are the ones that help Thrawn sleep at night. And besides, Thrawn's always preferred to have people by his side who are willing to challenge him, to help keep him honest.]
As for "economics and militarism," there's one thing I want you to keep in mind, for now. Where I come from, we have a saying: "war is the continuation of economic policy by other means." Remember it. It will help you gain a more complete understanding of what you're up against.
no subject
The Empire's stable, it'll protect us from other threats. We can't wage open war on the Empire because it'll cause instability in the senate. You just have to wait. It's temporary. You need to have patience.
The funnier thing is, none of that ever did any good for my people. The Republic and the Empire are all the same to me, neither one cares what happens to Lothal. Lothal wasn't useful in the Clone Wars so our struggles were ignored. When the Empire realized they could exploit us, they turned the planet into a wasteland without a second thought. I'm sure somewhere that meant that the "common people of the galaxy" were being protected. It's all worth it for the greater good, right?
Maybe I'm a bad Jedi. Or maybe I'm just a bad person. But I don't care. The planet of Lothal called out to me in the Force. I refused to ignore it. I know I can't save everyone, I've accepted that. And I admit that I don't know what'll happen to the rest of the galaxy. But there's no way the Empire was the best choice to save Lothal. It told me as much.
I'll try my best to remember all this and keep it in mind, but don't try and justify what happened on Lothal. You can't.
Oh, and the longer you and Vader keep stalling with Palpatine, the more time he has to ensure the galaxy will suffer once he's gone. Or to ensure he'll never be gone. I'm more worried about that one, honestly.
no subject
[And therein lies the issue. The Republic had let that foundation decay for centuries, and the Empire is more like a brace to hold the crumbling edifice in place on top of it than anything truly new. Exert too much force, and the whole thing will fall apart, taking everyone inside down with it - but either way, it's bound to collapse at some point. There's never a good time for it, but now might be the worst. And even Thrawn can barely begin to grasp the sheer scope of the work it would take to build something new.]
You're not a bad person, and I don't fault you for your priorities. You're also not a bad Jedi - I've met bad Jedi, and they fell into two categories. The first were those who listened to the High Council, had no faith in their own judgment, and let their supposed betters dictate every aspect of how they should think and act. The Jedi Order was already dead on its feet before Palpatine struck the final blow, because people like that made up its majority, and the Order was unable to innovate, unable to adapt, and unable to perceive its broader surroundings because of it. The way one of the Inquisitors expressed it has always stuck with me: "The groupthink had grown narrower and narrower until it was nothing more than the slaughterhouse chute leading them all like nerfs to the killing floor."
The second type were the opposite of the first - the Council themselves, and others, who thought the Force had given them infallible wisdom and the right to control not just the behavior but the thoughts of others, and that being masters of tradition made them the masters of the Order's future. They were the ones who dragged the Jedi into the Clone Wars in the role that they were least suited to.
You fit neither type.
[If he had, Thrawn might not have bothered with the offer that they work together. He might have simply eliminated Ezra at the earliest possible moment.]
...And you could be right about Palpatine. Either way, it's entirely possible there isn't an ideal solution to the problem he poses - he may on occasion be blinded by megalomania, but he's not stupid. He's thought his plans through, and taken some care in setting them all up. And he's given us an exceedingly nasty situation to deal with.
[Once he can reestablish contact, he'll have to check with Lord Vader as to whether the outcome Ezra thinks could've occurred on Lothal is even possible - but for now, all that matters is that Ezra thinks it was. And as for Palpatine doing more damage the longer he's alive, well, the existence of the Death Star makes that argument. It represents resources wasted on an almost unthinkable scope, and rather than the Empire's ultimate weapon, it is its weak point - all because Palpatine wanted the fear it creates, and wanted the monument to his own ego.]
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[The dark side comes easily to him, even without any teaching at first. At times, it was easier to access than the light. He almost turned when he was given the chance to save Kanan, after all. This would probably make him a very bad Jedi in the old Order's eyes.]
I don't think we should cling to the past, but I think... we need to be more aware of it than we are. Lothal had forgotten its past. And if I'm not careful, I'll end up repeating the mistakes of the old Jedi Order. Part of Palpatine's goal is to erase and reform the past to his liking. I grew up not knowing the Force existed, when my planet literally had a Jedi Temple on it and its own Force tradition long before that.
If you've actually met Jedi like you claim, you... might know more about them than I do. I've already done what I could to save Lothal and defeat the Empire. At least for now. Next... I have to figure out the future of the Jedi.
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[He is, at least, willing to concede a little bit on the importance of hope. The material conditions are important, but they aren't everything. They're more akin to terrain than anything else; there are ways to hold and ways to reshape any type of terrain, and sometimes the most difficult ground can be held and controlled with the fewest defenders. Thrawn wouldn't be where he is - or where he was - if individual initiative didn't matter. And he figures experience more than words will round the "no strategy just vibes" corners off Ezra's approach where necessary; he suspects not all of them will have to go.
It's difficult to forget what his former commanding officer, Admiral Ar'alani, had said to him the last time they'd met: "Someday, Mitth’raw’nuruodo, you’ll overthink and overplan, and it will come crashing down all around you. When that happens, I hope someone is there to lift you back to your feet." And it's difficult to be completely skeptical of the thought that perhaps the Force had brought him and Ezra together to balance each other.
Many of the Jedi he's known, he'd met after they were Jedi; perhaps the Dark Side doesn't faze him as much as it ought to, because that experience has led him to suspect it doesn't change the core of one's personality. For the Inquisitors, that is what allows Palpatine and Vader to keep them in line - and Vader, for whom he has an actual basis for comparison, seems to back up his hypothesis. Even mutilated, half-mad from pain and constant infections, tortured physically and psychologically by his master, Lord Vader is still capable of understanding kindness, and of responding well to being treated well, once he realizes it isn't a ruse to get him to let down his guard and thereby hurt him worse.]
Erasing and reforming the past to his liking is what Palpatine has already done, in a less literal way - again, destruction of information is a tactic the Sith have embraced over the ages. Lothal didn't forget; its past was stolen from it. That is how imperialist colonization always operates. In the right hands, history is not just a weapon, but an entire arsenal, so colonizers always make an effort to deprive the masses of it.
Lothal isn't the only victim of that tactic, and the Empire are not the only ones carrying it out. The enemy I mentioned earlier, the one already making forays into Imperial territory, is known as the Grysk Hegemony - and it is fortunate that they consider an alliance with the Empire to be far beneath their dignity, as their approach to ruling through fear and cultural dislocation makes Palpatine's look childish and inept. I am planning to go and break their stranglehold over the Unknown Regions. It would make things somewhat easier if you would join me - but if you would prefer to return home and enjoy your victory, I'll make the necessary arrangements when possible.
no subject
And then... we'll see, I guess. I don't think I'm the type to "enjoy" a victory.
[He'd be lying if he said there wasn't something appealing about jumping from one war into another. Not on the surface, but... it's all he's ever known. Fighting's easier than rebuilding the Jedi Order. It's probably easier than being a normal person at this point. Being stranded makes him restless, upset at the fact he can't do anything else, but he wonders if that feeling will only magnify once he returns home.
Ezra considers mentioning how annoying it is that Thrawn clearly knows all the way the Empire's super super evil and still decided to side with them. But he swallows his words and moves onto something more productive.]
While we're waiting for all that, there's something I'd like to ask of you too. I know I probably owe you after destroying your career, and ship, and crew, and plans, but. I don't really care.
[And probably Thrawn needs him more than he needs him, but that seems too rude to say out loud even for him.]
I wanna know what the Jedi were like. Everything I was told came from those who grew up in the Order, or those who fought against it. An outsider's perspective could be useful. On the Sith too, since you were working closely with them apparently. And if you don't mind... what the Chiss Force tradition is like.
Seems like we'll have plenty of time before we can actually strike. While you plan, I figure I should study.
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Actually, the Chiss Force tradition is probably the one you'll be learning the most about, because that is the one we'll likely be relying on to get us back to known space. Among the Chiss, Force sensitivity manifests primarily in the form of what we call Third Sight - the ability to see into the future, in a way very similar to how the Jedi use that power in combat. However, we've found a much different use for it. The Unknown Regions are such a morass of unstable hyperlanes and uncharted mass shadows that traditional navicomps are all but useless out here, so we rely largely on our Force sensitives as Navigators instead. The technique seems to be relatively straightforward for someone Jedi-trained to pick up.
((Around here is probably a good place to wrap thread, because I still need to make a lot of decisions about what Thrawn actually does and doesn't know about the Jedi and Sith and how he'd explain it. Which I am totally open to input on if you're interested in another thread that includes something specific about either one!))