Entry tags:

meme [gen]

unpopular opinions

Do you think people are too sensitive? Or that Superman isn't so super? Think cats aren't cute? The Beatles are overrated? Love pineapple on pizza? Maybe you just don't like chips rly. Even the best of us have some controversial opinions. Let people know what a monster you are.

top level

with your characters’ unpopular and/or controversial opinion. Or share few of them at once. In person or via text. Prepare for disagreement.

comment

to tell them why they're wrong, validate a kindred spirit, or just troll them for caring about such a silly-ass thing in the first place.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

To you.

[It's not quite incredulous, his echoing one, and not quite mocking. The words just...sit there. Heavy. They feel so very heavy, and his shoulders are so tired.

He knows he has worth to others. To Nat, who gave herself up for the sake of a world, sure, a universe--but for him most of all. To Laura, beloved and adored and trusted above all else. To the kids, to whom he played the devoted dad trying to make up for lost time. To the team, when there was still a team, and how he proved with every mission that he belonged among them. To Kate, who proved to him that there are people out there he can inspire even if he avoids the spotlight.

He tries every day to actually be worth the care others have for him. Some days are better than others. It's a work in progress that may never be finished. But he can try.

To Loki, though. A debt is one thing. A debt makes sense. It's transactional. It's 'I wronged you, I must now make it up to you', and it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. That Loki ascribes meaning, that there is an emotional aspect. That Clint means something more--much more, in fact, than he realizes.

Is a twist. Like a knife. He keeps Loki at his back, a dangerous enough thing to do even without this fraught topic.]

Why?

[It feels like being pushed towards an emotional precipice... teetering on the edge of ruin. Hawkeye wants him to bare his wounds and it was his debt to do so. But he was clinging to this one last tiny scrap of dignity. And if he told the truth, he felt sure that Clint would use it to wound him. The world seemed to echo around him, trapped in this moment of free-fall. Duty or dignity. Degrading honor or damning rejection. He had to. Baring it at least included any honor at all. Any hope. Right?]

[He wanted to run. To teleport, but something held him here. The debt maybe, or the concern or... He didn't know how to let go of his dignity. He barely knew how to force the honesty out of himself. So he bargains, instead.] What is that... to y-you-u?

[Bargaining a debt isn't a good look, but it's very Loki. He turns, anger, frustration flashing across his face.]

The fuck do you want me to say?

[Because he wants to say 'nothing'. He wants to spit the possibility of catharsis back in Loki's face, to suggest that while maybe he might feel bound to offer explanations to ease the debt, it won't mean a god damn thing in the end. But that wouldn't be true. What are answers to some old pains worth, though?]

I can happily spend the rest of my life not knowing. [But would it eat at him in silent moments, in darkness, in the times when he can't quiet his mind? To know that Loki, who had plucked him out for a greater and glorious purpose for his heart, felt he meant more than just a weapon of a body and a tactically sound mind?]

If you're gonna tell me, then tell me, and if not, then don't. [Then leave. Then never return.] Do you-- [He shuts his mouth, huffing out an annoyed sound, works his jaw quietly for a few moments before trying again.] If you need a second to collect yourself, fine. You look like a mess. [Which he knows tumultuous emotions unable to be reined in will do that to a guy.]

[In the state that Loki's in, Hawkeye's anger is piercing. He staggers backwards, again managing to look very small. Very young, even without his illusions. The following rant is something he just cannot take hearing, and Loki again turns his back, shaking, dazed and thinking. Being told he looked like a mess, would normally dredge up anger. But Loki is honestly just so emotionally compromised right now, that it's like he's back on Sanctuary, being tortured. Hawkeye's right; he knows he needs to reign himself back in.]

[Turned away as he is, he lets the tears fall. Just a short reprieve; nothing like the sobbing or flopping or punching that he's sure will need to happen later. Just enough to have let it out, in order to be present. I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be here... He couldn't even cut himself off from the emotions, because Hawkeye deserved better. Somehow it had come to this. Again. Somehow it so often came down to exactly the pain that Heimdall had tried to warn him away from.]

[Some part of himself was still letting go of that spear. Still curled up on the ground of an asteroid under an endless periwinkle sky. Flashbacks. They were distracting him, he realized. Causing changes to his behavior. He tried to focus on the ground beneath him, now. On the smells and sights of this place. Again, just a short reprieve. Hawkeye deserved the best that Loki could offer. Norns, this duty was destroying him.]

[Humiliated at both what's about to come to pass, and that he'd earned Clint's anger for trying to dodge it, a sob escapes him. It's very quickly stifled into his hand. Loki breathes deep, unsure how to face it all. How to even just turn back to face Hawkeye. Maybe if he only numbed himself a little? Just enough to speak his truths, then... then leave and let himself feel it? Something had to change. He couldn't do this, and was making Clint angry. He was worsening the wounds he wanted to heal. Something had to give.]

[It was shameful that he couldn't give them what he'd set out to give them. But he wasn't capable. He'd tried so hard. You cannot be that monster if you reject it so, as other-himself had said to him once. Sometimes promises fall through, Loki thought. What's a little more shame, really, on top of all of this? He wasn't allowed to run. He had to answer.]

[When he turns back, it will be very clear that he's deeply humiliated and defensive about it. He fidgets, but keeps his eyes on Clint.] I apologize.

[Every word. Every single word felt like it was going to make his face melt off with shame. Even partially numbed like this. But they would have their answers. Loki knew what he had to do.]

I feel a debt... to you in particular. [Stab me with that if you will...] I saw my pain in you. That thing had both of us at the same time. Our minds were connected.

[The next comes out in a slight moan that he hadn't intended.] You can hate me, and I don't consider you weak for being hurt. I-I-I just... don't know... how you expect me to not care.

Even after-- [And his throat closes. Come on. On with it! My face will never cease hurting, will it? It's probably turning all new shades of purple.] I pretended not to care.

I'm not-- [Oh lovely; back to the tears again.] asking for anything. Whatever you think I want you to say or... or feel.

I just keep reaching out. I know it... doesn't usually help. But sometimes... sometimes I can help.

[He doesn't owe Loki anything. All the debt is stacked on Loki's side. He knows that. He's aware of it. Keenly.

And yet.

It's the things he doesn't say, the thoughts and feelings he doesn't give voice to, that make him feel like there's something owed nonetheless. Not a debt, but just a common decency at least. He can give Loki all the time he needs to try and get the words out. If the words are necessary. If more is necessary. He even doesn't stare at Loki's back, doesn't bore into him. It isn't privacy, but it's something. Better than nothing.

It's exhausting to carry hate around. Clint would know; that's something he's been carrying for years, and it's been a journey to let it go now that it's over. Easy to hate Loki, but when he stopped being an immediate problem, the hate didn't last as long as he knew others would keep it. Grudges are fleeting. Was he furious at Tony for the whole locking up his former friends in the Raft thing? Yeah, of course. But it also led to house arrest and quality time with his family. Hard to hold a grudge over that kind of outcome.

Loki is always going to be some small, tiny, minuscule part of his life, until the day he finally croaks. But he at least stopped being such a large and eclipsing part of it. Hadn't come back to terrorize anyone. Had gone through a fake death at some point from what Thor explained. (And Thor, even while in mourning, believing the death real, had made a point to seek Clint out and inform him in particular. Clint hadn't known how to feel about it even then.) Had simply stopped being in Clint's orbit, directly around him, even if his influence and presence had loomed long after he'd left.

He hadn't realized that the same could be said for Loki, the flip side, the reverse. That perhaps he loomed large to Loki long after he'd left. That there will be some small part of himself haunting the trickster for the rest of his long days. (Or. Not so long. Depending on timelines, he supposes.)

In a sense, the power of the Mind isn't so different from the power of Space: it opens both ways. Not to a point of reading minds, no, but something harder to describe, to explain. One cannot touch without being touched in return.

Which is, in a sense, something that Loki understands. When Loki finally has enough of himself present to speak. Clint gives him his undivided attention. That feels owed, too. It's important. It's important.

He tries not to react. To just take it in, just watch, let it wash over him. But it still pushes the air out of his chest. Not the apology; that's foreseen. Not the permission, in a sense, to hate Loki. It's even after I pretended not to care, it's the idea of Loki reaching out deliberately, it's a quiet offer of help.

What is he supposed to do with that besides run away? He tries to remember how even breathing works. It's harder than it should be. Like a pressure on his chest. Recontextualizing what happened doesn't change what happened. He's pretty sure. So why is this so hard? Why is it so hard to stay on an even keel in the face of Loki's pain? He looks away, to the ground, away from Loki's watery eyes and splotchy face and the everything that he apparently feels. It's so much. It is so much, and it would be so easy in return to simply shut down in the face of it all.

He finally breathes, swallows until his throat clicks, works his jaw until he can open it up and try to let words come out.]

I expect you not to care cuz it's easier. Than dealing with the care. [Than dealing with knowing there may have been care and that it changed nothing.] I don't know how you can help. That's not me being a smartass; I really don't...know. If you make an offer...I can at least listen.

[He raises his eyes to Loki again. I saw my pain in you. Didn't change a fucking thing. But to acknowledge it is still something. Better than nothing.] I did everything you wanted. It wanted. For you. Every single thing. And more. I cared. And I don't know how much of that was me, and how much of that was the thing inside me.

[It goes further than that. That sometimes he doesn't know overall how much of what happened was him, and how much was the Stone. Because he's pretty sure the ratio is a lot different from what people on the outside assumed. He's pretty sure a lot of it was him.]

[Loki winces, feeling further degraded at hearing I really don't... know. He will make an offer, he decides, listening as Clint continues. But there's an ache in him now that he doesn't think he'll ever be able to live down. Every version of Hawkeye. Every one had rejected him. This was... what? The fifth one? The seventh?]

[As Barton continues, Loki begins to understand why. This is the first time that a version of Clint ever described this... this... it's almost a trauma-bond? It reminded him a lot of his feelings about Thanos? They'd been engineered and he knew he'd been brainwashed, but somehow it still felt real?]

[Hearing about Clint's self-doubts makes Loki protective. His shoulders hunch a little and his chest muscles grow tight. When Loki does manage words, he hates how tense and shaky they sound. He wants to provide comfort, be he also knows he's terrible at that.] Whatever you weren't doing before I got there... then the difference was the gem. As for... everything with me... Look, you didn't know who I was; why would you have cared? If the gem hadn't intervened, I think you would have hated me.

[Most versions of you seem to, after all... But then so do most people. Loki draws a deep breath, has to numb himself even further, and continues.] In the universe I spend most of my time in, I agreed to help. I joined the Avengers. We don't... get along spectacularly, but I'm not the only member of the group with something to prove.

And if you don't want anything at all to do with that... [~~with me~~] then no one would ever be able to blame you.

Okay, so, double standard. [He scoffs a little, but for once he doesn't mean it too unkindly. Frowns, rubs a spot between his brows, tries to figure out how to say all this.] If the gem hadn't intervened, you probably would've hated me, too. Or at least, you wouldn't have cared. You didn't know who I was, except apparently someone with heart. No reason for you to care, with or without the damn thing. You get this goes both ways, right?

[The thing that they both hated was the thing that brought them together, that touched their minds together, that brought about some twisted variation of care that maybe has lingered on long after the influence has departed. Why would Loki have cared otherwise? No reason for it. And now the only good reason to care is the debt of guilt crushing him down.

It doesn't have to be complicated, but it is anyway.]

In the universe I spend my time in, the Avengers broke up years ago. You faked your death, took over for Odin for a while, saw a planet die, [look, they don't all talk the way they used to, ever since the breaking up, but he still hears plenty] and then died again, possibly for real. Never joined us, when there was still an us. You had bigger fish to fry than to bother with the rest of us.

[Surprised by Clint's rant, especially because it sounded like he was defending Loki, the mage watches the archer. Tears still dripped down, and he was still numb because he had to be.] I... I do, yes.

[But the description of Clint's universe sounds familiar, from the other himselves Loki has met. He doesn't mention that. Furthermore, he doesn't mention that he also played Odin for a handful of months in his home universe. That's really not the point, because he'd evaded most of the things on that list, anyway.]

[Loki notes that as hard as it was to admit that he cared and wanted to help... Barton seems to be avoiding the topic. Maybe he's taking his time to think it over for a few days or decades. Maybe he just doesn't want to reject Loki any more than he's already done today. But having his offer, given with shame and guilt bleeding all over it, just ignored... why did that still hurt Loki? Why did anything still hurt? Wasn't he used to it, by now?]

[He closes his eyes a moment, waiting for time to happen. Letting his wounds air a bit before anything more. He almost wants to walk away. Instead he just stands there, letting the silence fill this gulf between them. Either Clint will tell him to stay, ask him to leave or he won't decide today. Loki won't rush him.]

[Okay. Okay, so that's established. That's a baseline in a sense. They don't have to talk about the care, real or imagined, inherent or planted inside of them, ever again, right? Maybe so. At least that it goes both ways is a settled matter.

And then that's that on that. That's all Loki has to say. Apparently. Makes no comment on the current non-state of the Avengers. No further comment on anything. He just. Silently waits.

And at first, Clint doesn't know what the hell he could be waiting for, where this protracted silence comes from. What more is there? There's no forgiveness to be had. It simply won't happen. But if Loki's waiting to get punched in the face or told to get the fuck out, he'll be waiting a long time for that, too. Is it closure of some kind he's awaiting? Or is it--the suggestion of help?]

I mean it, Loki, I really don't know what there is for you to do. There's no team to help. I'm...not doing the hero thing as much. 'm just trying to re-find my place in a world where I feel like I maybe don't deserve all the good I've got. [It's a heavy admission, but genuine. Can Loki help the feeling that the wrong person took a dive off a long cliff?] If you really need to help me to ease your debt, I mean... What is it that you think you can do for me?

[He has just heard Clint admit that the Avengers broke up years ago, but it's not until the archer repeats it a second time, insisting that there wasn't a team to help... that Loki realizes the true extent of what broke up really means. They weren't even keeping in contact? Weren't trying to... to do something? For so many of them, it was their way of... just everything. Loki can't imagine some of his teammates just not wanting to help people. If anything, so many of them felt like they needed to.]

[What had happened to them? Certainly there were a lot of them who didn't know how to stop helping. Wait, what had happened to Thor??? After Loki had died again-again-again.]

[Loki looks bewildered and it takes a moment for him to think about the best way to respond.] I... see. Whatever you would have me do.

[He really hopes that comes across dignified and contrite. And not theatrical and awkwardly self-conscious. He's terribly worried for his brother, but he's not going to rush Hawkeye for answers right away. Not after this kind of discussion.]

It's not--it-- [Clint doesn't know why he suddenly feels on the back foot when Loki's the one offering himself up. It's that realization, the same that Loki seems to be having, of just how fucked the situation is.] I don't think you do see.

[And a breath:] It's done. [He puts it that way, to start.] Thanos is done. He did a lot of damage. We undid most of it. He's done. But not without casualties. Two of ours dead, one's- I don't know, unstuck in time or lost in the timeline or just went back in time and decided to stay there, one's gone off into the universe to find himself, one's just trying to live his best life, and then there's me. [Who in theory is now also trying to live his best life, but that's not how he would describe it. Bruce deserves whatever peace he can find and carve out for himself. Thor hopefully will find whatever it is he's looking for. There are theories abound about what happened to Steve, though the most credible has been that after he did his duty, he settled down in his own time to get to live his life and might be kicking it now as an old man.

Sure. There are new heroes all over the place. Avengers, if they want to call themselves that, both from when the team was still together and who have shown up since. But the Avengers as the world knew them are no more.]

I don't know that you want to offer me that kind of power.

[Not that he thinks himself the kind of person that would abuse it, that would make the world a worse place for whatever he could think of having Loki do. But neither does he necessarily think himself a good man.

He's also not fool enough to turn it down wholesale. Having a god in his pocket could be useful down the line. Either to help himself, because god knows someday his luck is going to run out, or to help others when he isn't enough.]

...I wouldn't make you do anything you didn't want to do. And I wouldn't have you embarrass yourself. In case you were worried.

[Clint's insistence that Loki did not, in fact, see, brings the trickster up short. Understanding was imperative, here. Not just because Loki liked to have all of his mental files in order to plan properly and to boost his self-esteem or pride. But also because he really didn't want to make a drastic mistake with Hawkeye, of all people. Loki gives an unexpected little choke as his stomach reacts to the idea that the situation might be even more out of control than he'd even considered.]

[It's done, feels like a stab to the heart, but as numb as Loki has made himself, it only causes his face to blank in a slight frown as he blinks repeatedly. From there, he feels like he's heard this story before... but other him hadn't mentioned dead Avengers. Two??? Loki's eyes are bright and direct, burning even as his face maintains its forced laxness, and that might tell Clint that something in the mage's mind was not quite well.]

[He plays Hawkeye's phrasing back, in his mind, a few times, because there's so much information to take in at once. The one who traveled the universe is maybe Thor? The others never seemed so inclined. Why are there only six people on the list? What happened to the others? Which two died? Why didn't they set up in Wakanda or Asgard? Oh, oh wait other-himself had mentioned that there was no Asgard.]

[A headache sets in suddenly, because his heart has been hammering and Loki's been too numb to notice until he had symptoms from it. No. No, there are only six people on that list. You are going to tell me what happened to the others. To the team that I will piece back together if it damn well destroys me. I'm the one who needs the answers now! You have to tell me! He has to shield Hawkeye from the protective rage, but underneath that... it hurts to think of Thanos killing even more people that Loki loved. Enough death. There had been enough...]

[He doesn't comment on Clint not thinking himself worthy of... whatever power he was referring to. A royal connection or seidr or anything else. It would be a relief to hear that Hawkeye didn't intend any further degrading treatment upon him, but Loki is so numb right now, that hearing it just gets it mentally noted as a success. Anything you didn't want to do does come off sounding like Clint is well aware of the jarring role reversal here, but Loki can do nothing about that.]

[After a pause to absorb all the information, Loki responds,] There is... too much information of which I am not aware. There were more than six Avengers. At least in the timeline where I participate. There are places they could start over. And I-- realize that we are in a terrible situation here, because I cannot go to them, asking them to band together. And you are the only connection I have to their timeline, so I don't want to have to ask you all these... questions when you've already... seen so much of it happen.

I feel like I need to know. And I... think it's unlikely that I'll be welcomed back to your timeline, to find out. But-- [Don't make a mistake. Don't make a mistake...] The Avengers need to exist. I have to do something.

I--okay. [He holds up his hands. Is there such a thing as a time out when it comes to emotionally fraught attempts to make up for mind control? Loki's not right in the head, yeah, but also, has he ever really been?] I think before we do anything else, maybe we just need to...figure out where we are. What our universes are like. Maybe we should define Avengers? [Because yeah, it's entirely possible that this Loki's universe/timeline of existence is vastly different. It's also entirely possible they are both working off of some unequal assumptions here.]

There are technically a bunch of people that can be called Avengers. Hell, everyone at the last battle against Thanos, far as I'm concerned, they're all Avengers. But the original group of us, there were six. Me, Thor, Black Widow, Captain America, Iron Man, and the Hulk. [Might as well use their codenames, the ones that have them. He doesn't know just how familiar Loki is with the others.] Depending on when along the timeline you wanna go, then you've got people like--Wanda, Vision, Falcon, War Machine or Iron Patriot or whatever name Rhodes is going by now, Black Panther, Barnes because I'm pretty sure he doesn't dig the Winter Soldier name, Ant-Man, Spider-man. Cast the net out wider more recently, then you start getting people from other already-named groups like uh, the Guardians, I think they're called? Bunch of mostly aliens who do their own thing. Nebula and Rocket, they helped out when we needed them. There's Doctor Strange who does freaky magic that's still not as freaky as Wanda's. There's freaking Captain Marvel I guess they call her who's a human but from space, I don't even know what her story is or if she even counts.

[He spreads his hands in a helpless little gesture.] In this moment, when I talk about the Avengers, I mean the original six of us. But there are technically more. And also technically not, because I don't think anyone's actually using the Avengers name right at this moment. As far as I know, right now, where and when I'm from, there are no Avengers for you to try and sidle up to. You'd have to pick another group or attach yourself to a particular person at this point. Maybe your brother.

[That Loki has managed to unnerve Hawkeye once again, leaves him feeling small, ineffective and shameful. He tries to pay attention to what's being described to him.
There were several names on that list, that Loki had never heard before. Maybe he hadn't been with the group for long enough to meet them. Nearly half of them? He does clearly remember when there were only six; he'd fought them. Researched them, as he'd said.]

[Everything starting from for you to try to sidle up to is infinitely enraging and Loki chalks it up to Clint being insulting again, in much the same way as the one Loki usually worked with. After this conversation, he could now understand a lot more about why. Also Loki tried to keep in mind that the insulting phrasing may have to do with defensiveness of the people in his own timeline. Not wanting Loki's interference. But they had to exist. It couldn't be over. They'd been too successful, too dear to everyone to just... fall apart.]

[Loki is hyperaware of the delicacy of his role in this situation. There were only so many things he could ask after or attempt. But they had to be rebuilt. It couldn't be over. He wouldn't let it be over. There is a short pause while Loki attempts to compose himself enough to respond to all of it. Anger... was not... helpful. No matter how insulting that last barrage of sentences had been.] As dearly as I love my brother. And relieved as I am, to hear he yet lives...

That group... was necessary for your realm's survival. I haven't met half of those people. I don't... [How was this even such an appalling thought to him, when he was numbed? It's like it was just wrong on some sort of basic, intellectually visceral level.] have the right to return there if I'm not wanted. But they have to exist.

That more deaths happened... is awful enough. They cannot disband. [And he'd just stressed that. Growled it out as forcefully as he had. To Hawkeye of all people. And that's when the panic attack starts.]

I can't-- I-I-I-I-I can't-- I can't-- I can't-- Can't-- I-I-I-I-I...

[You look like a mess, Clint had said. This can't really be helping that. By this point, his visage is almost as awful as he'd looked after stepping through the portal. He turns away, to hide this reaction from Clint, then abruptly sits on the ground, curling one leg up toward himself while panting.]

[He doesn't understand. He doesn't understand this Loki, at least. That somehow this information, this fact, both enrages him and panics him so much that he can hardly stand. The world spins on without The Avengers; it has plenty of other heroes now.

So he's baffled, yeah. Disturbed by the reactions, the insistence of something that is not. There is something tremendously wrong with this version of Loki.

And what might be the worst part is the tiny fraction of Clint that wants to do what he can to soothe it away. It's annoying. It's absurd. It persists.

At the very least, even if they can't reach any sort of reasonable agreement, he should leave the guy in a state that is not worse than when they started. Even if Loki might deserve it. And he's not entirely certain that Loki does. (This Loki. Because now that it's clear that this one differs from the one he knows, knew, he can no longer be sure of what his Loki experienced. Maybe that one held more of his mind. Maybe that one held no care or affection at all. It's likely, now, that he'll never know. Which makes this potential for catharsis a tease at best.)

He takes a few breaths as though to calm himself, and then he sits as well. Slow and easy and cross-legged, hands resting on his knees. With others, he might try a soothing touch if possible. This, this is a situation he's going to treat not unlike a cornered animal. Keep his voice as even as possible. Don't get upset. Don't get angry. Maybe don't snark, but given this is Clint, that's asking a whole lot.]

Making me kinda envious of your universe. Mine's not set up quite that way. That's okay. Earth's still standing. Lotta people in it that can step up to the plate.

You don't owe a debt to me. You owe one to the other Hawkeye, the one you know from where you're from. My Loki owes me a debt. You can't join my world's Avengers because they broke up- [he blows a little air between his lips] -about eight years ago or so. The legacy lives in, but the original crew, we're done. And that's okay. You've got your Avengers.

Is that enough?

[There is usually something tremendously wrong with any version of Loki, really, but this one's seen a bit more suffering than some of his alternates. He glances back over his shoulder when he hears Hawkeye moving, and is stunned to find that they're both sitting, before Loki turns back to face away from him once more. Loki knows he must look insane, and he feels so much worse than he's letting himself appear. He's just so glad that Clint isn't angry about his ridiculous outburst.]

[There might be a lot of people in Clint's universe who could defend Midgard, but they weren't Loki's friends. His debt, his meaning, his sanity. The mage really isn't certain when they became all of that. Slowly, gradually, they'd become one of the few sureties he could trust in the universe. To hear of them falling apart like this in another timeline... it couldn't happen.]

[Even when he'd purposely enraged them, he'd known that the Avengers were the ones to enrage, first. He'd looked at his options and they were the fastest, most ethical, versatile way, both to fight and to make an impression that warned others of the oncoming danger. Clearly Thor had similarly considered them worth joining, rather than any other groups on Midgard. Having seen his fair share of it, Loki didn't trust money or power or traditional roles. Midgard needed people who were just good, without restriction.]

[His heart feels sick and throbbing, deep within his chest. Loki regains control over his breathing, but he won't let himself ask which ones are dead, which ones survived. The conversation, as it had been, was already far more than he could take. And now Hawkeye of all people, was having to coddle him like some infant when Loki should be stronger than this.]

I don't. Have-- [He gives a self-effacing little plosive laugh,] my Avengers, if you want to call them that.

I... ran from my own timeline. I spend most of my time in two others. The Avengers I joined... the me of that universe was dead already. Or so they said.

[Quietly, Loki shifted so that they were facing one another again, and crosses his legs beneath himself, as well.] It's easier... to fulfill the debt of someone I was not, but was similar to, [Loki explains.] If I were to return to my universe, Thanos is still there, Odin is still there, and I truly doubt the Avengers would welcome me. It was hard enough, in the universe where we do work together, to gain their trust and friendship. I don't expect it will go over well with the ones I directly... attacked.

And I can't save every Midgard. I see what you mean. But that group was a precious thing, in the universe. So worthwhile that multiple beings from outside your world knew it to be.

I'm sorry. I have experienced... far too much loss. And this discussion was already... an absolute nightmare. Which again. Is my fault.

I'm really not sure it will ever be enough. How many Midgards I have to save before I feel... like it's over. I'm sure I'm not... the only person in the group who wouldn't really... ever feel right, if it was all just over. Bucky and Tasha and Wanda and Strange, we... We're not like the others. We need this. To prove who we are. Who we were.

It's not-- just that our friends are dead, and it... shouldn't have had to be you who told me. And it is not just... that I am displeased losing yet another component of self-definition. That's okay; by this point, I've learned to replace them easily enough. Life goes on. We adapt.

I meant it. Without a group like that... ethical, unaffiliated, unpaid, instant, answering to no one, until later when they must answer to every nation on your world... then your planet becomes predictable. Open to systemic corruptions and too slow to adequately face another threat like Thanos. It's not enough that they do good separately. That group... for all of its ridiculous flaws and failures, it was so worth it. You can't let it die. I can't let it die.

[He hates the way that for everything that Loki says, it's her name that is the focus of all of his attention.

Because it's wild enough that he speaks of them with familiarity and friendliness. There's a world or two out there where Strange and Loki get along well enough to fight side by side. Where Loki calls him Bucky and doesn't get his teeth punched out with a metal fist.

But there's at least one version of the timeline where Nat's alive.

His palms feel sweaty, skin clammy. He hears Loki's words, but for a few blank moments, he's back on a quiet alien world under the most beautiful sky he's ever beheld. And none of it makes up for the loss. The weight of the Soul Stone impossibly heavy in his hand as warm waters lap at him. And she is gone. She is gone to such an extent that not even the power of all of the fucking Stones will undo the damage, because that's the bargain made for power.

Did it have to be like that?]

In these other timelines you hop around in. [It might infuriate Loki that Clint is going to so deftly avoid the meat of the topic, the crux of the argument, to take a trip to the side.] What happened to Thanos?

[Loki glances at Clint again, in something that looks like fear-disappointment, before thinking. His shoulders bunch a little and he draws a deep breath, knowing Hawkeye probably won't like what he's going to hear.] One of the realities, I believe is still long before Thanos was a threat.

The other one. The one where I joined all of you. We've been together for only... about a year. Out of that, we've had... I think it's six actual missions by now. About a dozen... side distractions. [And a few holidays.]

They didn't... actually tell me what happened with Thanos. I asked. Repeatedly. Another version of me asked me to ask them, as well. They seemed... upset, when I asked. Reticent to speak of it. At least to speak of it... to me.

[He sighs.] I don't know if they just don't trust me. I'd had... plans at one point-- just-- ideas of what might work against him.

I wish I knew. I'm sorry. It's possible-- that I'm not the only one from outside their timeline. That whoever died in your universe, died in theirs and we... just found our way to that place from this one.

[It's after he's done describing, that Loki feels a distant bite of frustration about the argument being derailed. The numbness helps him not to completely melt down about it. Even then he must acknowledge that he's not willing to give up the group and that he was willing to pretend to be them, to each other, if he had to. They could hate him for it, if they wanted. But he shouldn't make decisions while emotionally numb, either, so perhaps later he'd consider that a terrible idea.]

[It doesn't tell him as much as he'd like. But at the end of the day, he has to focus on his own reality. The things that happened there. The people that are still there. And keep going for the ones who aren't. What's Clint going to do, trade out one universe for another? For the sake of one person? Run away the way Loki admits to doing?]

Stark made a sacrifice play to get rid of Thanos and his whole army.

[That's not the important part. It's an important part. Clint's never been good at holding grudges, and Tony was there from the start. He never really hated the guy even after the Avengers broke up, but it was hard to hold the whole thing against him after it led to quality time in actual (if this time forced) retirement with his family). It's not hard to mourn. But the world is doing a good job of showing that whole outpouring of love for the guy.]

Steve went back through time to set some things right. Never came back.

[Maybe not dead, technically. But he is to the world at large. Losing the beloved figure of Captain America has hit people hard, and there's a kind of patriotic idealism that's been left in his wake that turns Clint's stomach. Because that's not what Cap was about. Maybe Sam will show them.

He swallows. The world has done a far less good job of showing love for another lost member, though her grave certainly gets visits.]

Tasha gave herself up for me.

[For Laura, Cooper, Lila, Nate. For Wanda, T'Challa, Bucky. For half of the universe. Whatever it takes. It was for a noble and necessary cause. But he knows. He knows that between the two of them, she did it for him.]

[ He knew it would come as a shock, whoever was dead. But Tony... the man he'd thrown from a window, who reminded him of past-himself and shared his homes with them... that hurts. Loki's shame and guilt will never truly attain closure either, with this version who has died, and Tony would never grow. ]

[ It will now probably be obvious, how deeply Loki has numbed himself, because while his eyes go deeper and his jaw drops a bit about the news of Tony's death, he also looks very detached. Almost like he's watching it on television or something. ]

[ Then it gets worse. Evidently Hawkeye feels like unloading it all on him, even after all the shame and the meltdown knocking him to the floor. Fun times. ]

[ Steve. It takes his breath away. Steve and Bucky had been the first to accept him, the first to listen about the Mind Stone and the first to protect him from the others. If Loki hadn't been grieving as deeply as he is, it might occur to him that the death of a political figure (who was actually wearing a symbol and encouraged the idea of being synonymous with it) could have awful consequences. But for right now all he can think of is how he took Steve's form after Frigga's death, to mock the man's naivete and over-confidence. Admittedly, he'd also remembered exactly how he'd looked, because their first meeting in Stuttgart had reminded Loki so much of Frigga, as well. ]

[ What had happened to Bucky? Or to Sam? They couldn't-- the group couldn't be over. Loki wouldn't let them be over. Bucky must be driven half mad with all this. ]

[ Loki had already begun to regard Clint with actual alarm, after Steve's disappearance is mentioned. But nothing could have prepared him for hearing about Tasha. He leans backward, away from Hawkeye, like he can dodge the words themselves. ]

[ Hawkeye's partner. One of the guilt squad. One of the hardest to prove himself to, despite their similarities. The way they'd met had been appalling enough, verbally trouncing each other before Ego had taken over with much more pronounced and vicious threats. But Hawkeye. She was so close to Hawkeye and she hated Loki... ]

[ He opens his mouth to speak, but his throat won't let him. He forces the feelings down, even as the tears begin. It's like they're someone else's tears. He doesn't have to feel it. ] Thank you for telling me.

[ Is that why you disbanded? Loki thought, With your leader and the owner of your headquarters both dead? With your partner dead... This was far too much, far too fast, but Loki wasn't going to ask Clint to stop. Knowing was important. It might be important for any plans later, too. ]

And it's been eight years? [ There was something wrong with Loki's tone, enough that even he noticed it. He sounded so numb that the words had an oddly hollow ring to them. He couldn't help it anymore; it was too much. ]

It's been [with a steadying breath in the middle, because even he can't believe it's been:] about a year, now. Since we stopped Thanos and lost those three.

Eight's been since the technical disbanding of the gang. Hey, nothing like the fate of the universe to get the gang back together, especially after half of said universe got brought back from oblivion.

[He says it casually, because if he says it any other way, he might just break. At least to Loki. Who has calmed down significantly, but only because it's pretty clear he's just going through the motions numbly. Somehow it's too much emotion and information too fast, and Loki's decided going into shutdown mode is better than the endless tears and searing rage.

Somehow Clint doesn't like that any better. And it's a fucking bizarre thing to suddenly want to apologize to someone like Loki, for telling him things that are upsetting that he didn't even have to live through. His hands tighten on his knees, relax again, and then he leans back so his clammy hands rest on the floor instead. Lets it all hang there, watching, observing Loki, really taking him in.]

I think we're done for right now. [It's slow and sure and calm. Admittedly tapping into his dad voice.] I think you need some time to work through this. [Which, again, still buckwild to him, but here they are.]

[Eyes widening upon hearing it had only been a year, Loki nodded. Eight since the technical disbanding of the gang. And even hearing the phrase half of said universe has Loki tensing up while numbed as well, as though Thanos is going to recapture him at any moment.]

[He's watching Hawkeye, too, even as traumatized as he is. Even while he knew he might have to betray this man to get the group back together. Information was imperative. Especially knowing how Hawkeye felt about him after... well, after everything. Loki sees that hand tense for a moment, isn't sure what it's about, and then it's a bit of a shock to find Barton leaning back like this. Especially since it just leaves his chest open to attack or... or... okay Loki didn't need another flashback. He focuses on his breathing, looking at the floor.]

Anyone would, [he agrees. Was that a bit of his show-off nature coming back? He didn't have any reason to be so defensive, but... he was. Rough day, he supposed.]

[Were they to part, now? Or was Clint suggesting a particular way to work through it?] What would you suggest?

Used to be a time I could look at you and figure out what you needed. [A long time ago to him, for a few very long days.]

I don't know anymore. I just know that we need to stop talking about the shit in my world so you can get an even keel again. Don't know what that looks like, to you. The things you do to calm down and reorient yourself back into your body.

[Whether it's sex or training or listening to music loud or meditating or what the fuck ever. Something, anything, to come back to himself and feel things again.

Maybe this is foolish. He shouldn't care about where Loki's head is at. But he's not here to ruin the man, not unless Loki comes to ruin him first.]

[Loki's breath catches for a moment, and he has to force it to continue. Lovely reminders there, thank you. Loki continues to stare at the floor. It was shocking to him to hear Clint admit it, but all the more so, given that Barton's chest was facing him. Evidently... somehow he'd succeeded at gaining this Clint's trust, enough for that.]

[It was so bizarre and frustrating to him, how he'd practically begged the group for understanding for years, but they'd refused to trust him until he'd become a sobbing mess. They'd trusted villainous versions of him, even! Over him! Sweetened words, rather than quiet, careful ones. Until Loki had felt that he'd lost everyone, and meeting them caused him to shatter. And something in them... couldn't take that. For this version of Clint, as well as the Avengers in his teamed up universe, the answer seemed to have less to do with truthfulness and more to do with vulnerability. Which Loki wasn't really good at. Currently he felt like an imposition upon poor Clint, who clearly had enough troubles of his own.]

[The description made it sound as though Barton had been to a soul healer, to learn it. Or... whatever it was called on Midgard. Therapist? Loki hadn't preferred the idea of ever being so vulnerable as to speak his memories like that to another person. As such, it was Barton claiming that Loki had looked like a mess, earlier. Loki couldn't contain it anymore. There was too much. The research wasn't helping him enough. Maybe he should look into therapists. In either realm.]

That's... a good idea. But that's going to take a while.

Did you have anything else you'd... wanted to discuss?

[Loki finally managed to look Clint in the eyes again. And Barton's eyes weren't glowing. Even though his chest was there.]

[SHIELD wasn't exactly going to take back someone with open arms who had been under the thrall of the bad guy of the week, no matter what Fury and Nat said, without some assurances. It sure as hell included mandated therapy. And after struggling with the idea of it, the takeaway was...that the right doc can make a difference. He's thankfully never been too deeply entrenched in any kind of overly masculine ideal. Kept someone on speed dial, just in case.

Should probably look into picking that back up sometime. Though in some sense, ridding himself of the Ronin outfit was a form of therapy in itself.

Not gonna suggest Loki go to human Earth therapy, though. Holy shit, he's not going to saddle some poor fuck with that.

He tips his head up and looks like he's going to say something curt and witty, but doesn't. Like something's caught his tongue halfway there. Looks at Loki. Looks at Loki looking at him in turn. An odd string of tension in the air. And maybe, belatedly, he considers the openness of his pose. If someone were to fly at him right now, it's not the best position to put up a fight from initially (though he certainly would do it). Is it the thoughtless physical vulnerability that's helping to trip Loki up? He's pretty sure this Loki isn't about to snap and attack him out of the blue.

Pretty sure Loki was never keen on attacking him, after recognizing Clint's heart.

...Oh.

And where he'd felt the crawl of mild panic at the memories of Nat, now suddenly he feels a prickling shiver along his skin. Shuts his mouth slow and simply breathes, trying to become less sharply, keenly aware of his physical self now that it's brought into focus. If he asked Loki what he was thinking about when looking at him, what kind of answer would he get?

Set it aside. Set that thought aside immediately before it burns the both of them. He lets out a huff of a breath and rolls forward, and then up and onto his feet. Makes his way over to Loki. Holds out a hand to likewise help him to his feet.

At least it's not grabbing. Just an offer.]

Nothing that can't wait. Kinda would rather talk to you-you, not barely-registering-feelings-you.

[Though there's the question of whether he'd prefer to talk to Loki at all. Which he won't mention or bring up.]

unpopular opinions

top level

comment

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject